+3 runes vs +1 - Guild Wars Forums

erikjo · Jan 15, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Strictly pve, when is it best to use +3 rune? I know for an mm it is a must, but it seems that losing 75 health isnt worth it for other builds. I am trying to outfit all my heros, so am I better off running +1 runes on them instead? I am using the 3 necro build atm and i have a +3 rune for the mm and +1 runes for the others. I also used to run a +3 fire on my ele, but now I put a +1 rune. Any thoughts?

I am mainly vanquishing and doing missions in hard mode atm, so this is the context I am talking about.

Pyro maniac · Jan 15, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

you're right
+1 is just the best. -75 hp is alot, while you just increase the green numbers a little.
you may want to use major sometimes for hitting breakpoints, but I don't know any atm.

Squishy ftw · Jan 15, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I got +1s on everything.

I prefer my heros having 600ish health rather than having 2 ranks more in whatever attribute it is.

Olim Chill · Jan 15, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

The most I'd ever go is Major( +2 -35). -75 HP is too steep for my liking.

Quaker · Jan 15, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Since you are mostly vanquishing and/or HM, I wouldn't recommend +3 runes on anyone, including the MM. I use Major (+2) runes at most on any heroes, and Minors (+1) where the difference is slight.
A Superior (+3) Rune on the MM does allow it to make 10 minions (with 16 in DM) and have slightly stronger minions, but the loss of health makes hero MMs die too easily IMHO. With a Major, they still can make 9 minions and they are only slightly less powerful.
Basically, I use Major Runes on hero monks, necros & mesmers and minor runes on Rangers. (I don't really use the other heroes very often.)

Orange Milk · Jan 15, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

-75 is ok with compensation, or a -35 for that matter.

Compensation being Health inscriptions or Fourtitude mods on weapons as well as skills that raise you max health.

I say play around witha PvP only to create combonations of runes, insignias and weapons you like. A sup rune here, a vitae insignia there and so on to get the attribute points and HP levels your happy with, then go buyem and slapem on your heros.

Thats what I'd do if I were me.

I Will Heal You Ally · Jan 15, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Well I couldn't imagine my ele without those +3/-75hp runes.... maybe it's a mistake cuz I get 495 with +30focus mod but still the eles can do with that power is great and add glyph of ele power for another +2 and you get 18 attribute points

. Add some eggs & grails of might an dthere ya go with 20 attribute

MagmaRed · Jan 15, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

I decided its a matter of personal preference and playstyle. I use Major and Superior runes on almost all my heroes. In fact, my MM uses Superior Death, Major Soul Reaping, Minor Blood, Attunement, and Major Vigor, with 4 MM Insignias and 1 Bloodstained Insignia. My MM hero rarely dies, and if she does, the whole team is usually dead anyway.

I decided the ability to have more damage output from Superior Runes allows for things to die faster. When things die faster, I don't have to worry as much about staying alive, as there isn't much killing my team.

I have Legendary Vanquisher, and Legendary Guardian, so I do know Hard Mode, and this has worked well for me. Heroes I use with Superior runes are:

Livia (Death)
Master of Whispers (Curse)
Zhed Shadowhoof (Water)
Acolyte Sousuke (Fire)
Vekk (Air)
Koss (Strength)
Xandra (Channeling)
Razah (Spawning Power)
Melonni (Mysticism)
Khamu (Scythe Mastery)
Norgu (Illusion)
Gwen (Domination)

Heroes with Major runes:

Dunkoro (Healing Prayers+Divine Favor)
Tahlkora (Protection Prayers+Divine Favor)
Ogden Stonehealer (Smiting+Divine Favor)
Margrid The Sly (Marksmanship+Wilderness Survival)
Acolyte Jin (Expertise+Beast Mastery) - thumper

Pyre Fierceshot (Marksmanship+Expertise)
Olias (Blood)
Jora (Swordsmanship+Tactics)
Goren (Hammer Mastery+Strength)
Zenmai (Dagger Mastery+Critical Strikes)
Anton (Shadow Arts+Dagger Mastery)
General Morgahn (Spear Mastery+Leadership)
Hayda (Motivation)

Biostem · Jan 15, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

The key is whether or not you are striving for a certain break point in an attribute. If you want that 16 rating, then definitely go w/ a sup rune, but if you're gonna spread points among 3 or more attributes, then it isn't worth it - use minors or majors.

Frankly, the only case where I use a sup rune is on a MM hero, otherwise I go major or minor. Another factor is cost - generally speaking, major runes are the cheapest, whereas certain sup runes are more expensive and minors are all around more expensive.

Also keep in mind that, given the proper application of other runes, insignias, and weapon mods, even that -75hp can be overcome...

pygar · Jan 15, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I like +3 runes, and +2s as well. They are a lot of times way cheaper than +1's at the vendor, and I find at least in NM pve I can make do wth about 400-425hp. Not only can u reach certain break points with the bigger bonuses, but you can also boost a stat above twelve with the rune and bring it back down to 12 and gain huge amounts of points to move around to other stats if needed. I know the prevailing wisdom amongst players seems to put value on hit points over the attributes (otherwise the +1's wouldnt be so expensive), but really either the enemies i face cannot get around my defenses to do 300-400 damage to me that fast, or I got outnumbered by multiple groups and the x-tra 100hp wouldnt have really kept my group alive for enough seconds to really matter. Thought getting to the the Realm of Torment this weekend was going to make me change that, but sure enough it hasn't, even with all the weird extra environmental conditions (like the one that does 20dmg every time you attack or use a skill,thought that one would ruin me for sure). Basicly, -75hp may sound like a lot...but extra attribute points in the right place can make a bigger difference.

Pyro maniac · Jan 15, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I decided its a matter of personal preference and playstyle. ..
General Morgahn (Spear Mastery+Leadership)
Hayda (Motivation)

But it's all about preference. I prefer minor, mostly because I can swap through my less used heroes without modifying all the gear.
Since I don't have got a main char and equipping 300 heroes with gear is a bit expensive for me, I can swap with 3x wilderness heroes, and then 3x marksman rangers without swapping runes while not having the -75 for nothing

erikjo · Jan 15, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Thanks all. I am mainly worried about hm, as when i play there are bosses that do spikes. I was vanquishing an area in cantha, and a ele boss with air magic spiked me for 576 in one hit. This is the kind of stuff I am worried about. On the non mm's, i am running full radiant insigs, +1 soul reaping and curse/blood depending on the necro, +41 hp, and two +10 health. I also have staffs with +30hp on them. To compensate for the -75 hp on the mm, i have a similar set up rune wise but I also use the woe spreader for the 60hp it gives. If you have any other advice for me let me know, and thanks to all.

Any tips on henchies to bring with me, I am thinking a monk and maybe two w and an interrupt ranger?

pygar · Jan 15, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikjo

Thanks all. I am mainly worried about hm, as when i play there are bosses that do spikes. I was vanquishing an area in cantha, and a ele boss with air magic spiked me for 576 in one hit. This is the kind of stuff I am worried about. On the non mm's, i am running full radiant insigs, +1 soul reaping and curse/blood depending on the necro, +41 hp, and two +10 health. I also have staffs with +30hp on them. To compensate for the -75 hp on the mm, i have a similar set up rune wise but I also use the woe spreader for the 60hp it gives. If you have any other advice for me let me know, and thanks to all.

Any tips on henchies to bring with me, I am thinking a monk and maybe two w and an interrupt ranger?

An interupt ranger will help, a monk with damage reducing/blocking spells will help, and also not having so many radiant insignias (Necro shouldn't need them that bad) but having armor buffing insignias may help, especially since monster AI will go for "weak links" in your group, like targets that have low HP or low Armor Rating.(if the enemy AI constantly comes right for you, you are the "weak link").....changing runes/insignias a little- even for just minor changes to HP and AR can make it so your heroes or henchies take a big spike like that and not you.

Example, my group....without going into every rune and insignia

Koss 405hp AR 96 (116 vs phys)
Hayda 406hp AR 96 (106 if shout or chant)
My Ranger 411hp AR 70 (90 vs magic)
Livia 410hp AR 60 (+5 per minion)

Because of the AR and HP numbers, the enemies go for Livia first right now...if they dont attack livia, monsters will still attack Koss or Hayda before they will attack me because of the slightly lower HP. (the wiki says they look at HP first, AR next-seems to be more dynamic than that) Long story short just make sure whatever runes you use dont leave you with both the lowest HP and the lowest AR in your group, or else the monsters will come right to you like you have a juicy steak in your pocket.

Molock · Jan 15, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

My elementalist uses a +3 fire (or whatever elemental magic he is using) and a +1 energy storage rune. So basicly I end up with 485hp (or 455 using a "of enchanting" staff). I have never really had any problems with my hp being too low.

Dropper · Jan 16, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Yes, they do. They prove I have played extensive Hard Mode. At least the 2 I mentioned do. If I said I have "Many Leather Bound Books", that would prove nothing. But I didn't say that, did I?

When will people learn to think before typing?

I'm in the process of vanquishing, and have done guardian in cantha (soon to do it in other continents, too) and I have to say it doesn't require any skill whatsoever. For example, using either Sab's popular builds or the imba paragon build, you can complete any area without knowing how to play.

And honestly, when has hard mode ever been too hard?

MagmaRed · Jan 16, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropper

I'm in the process of vanquishing, and have done guardian in cantha (soon to do it in other continents, too) and I have to say it doesn't require any skill whatsoever. For example, using either Sab's popular builds or the imba paragon build, you can complete any area without knowing how to play.

And honestly, when has hard mode ever been too hard?

Read what you quoted me saying again. I said it proves I have played extensive Hard Mode. I didn't say I was good at it, although I think I am. I said I have played it a lot, and my 2 titles give evidence of that. Sab's builds are good, but I don't use them. I used them once, to see what the big deal was, and only liked the Rit healer mode out of it. That said, the MM won't work in many missions or certain areas. Taking an MM into Maguuma with the Scarabs is not good unless you take some good skills to steal the minions back. Some areas are densely populated with monsters that do not leave corpses, so again, the MM won't be much help. Curses are powerful, but some areas have extreme hex removal. Knowing what you face, and what works well against that is 100x better than Sabway.

If you know what builds you will use, then the runes to go with them should decide themselves for the most part. There are times where a build won't change much if you use a minor rune instead of a superior, but those won't be often. As I first stated, its all a matter of preference and play style.

the_jos · Jan 16, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Depends on the area but in general, I'd say +1 runes do except with a breakpoint at higher rank (MM for example).
Yesterday I played with a random group in a NM dungeon (guildie asked me to join him) and I got the feeling that both melee were using superior runes with no vigors to compensate. They went down too fast to explain otherwise.
It also didn't help that a monk hero is just not so good at pre-casting PS

Quaker · Jan 16, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikjo

To compensate for the -75 hp on the mm, i have a similar set up rune wise but I also use the woe spreader for the 60hp it gives. If you have any other advice for me let me know, and thanks to all.

Whichever way you look at it, you will have 75 more health without a Superior Rune than with one. (or 40 more with a Major)

Earth · Jan 16, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Cut the flaming and help him. If you can't, don't post. It's simple.

Thank you.

The Meth · Jan 16, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

I almost always use a single sup, the reason being that for 99.9% of pve areas I and my heroes are never even in the slightest danger of dieing. The other .1% being DoA, Urgoz and Deep where you end up with 3 or 4 people just spamming imba pve skills and once again you have basically no chance of death.

Jan 15, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36	#1
erikjo Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Nov 2007 Guild: exct Profession: N/	+3 runes vs +1 Strictly pve, when is it best to use +3 rune? I know for an mm it is a must, but it seems that losing 75 health isnt worth it for other builds. I am trying to outfit all my heros, so am I better off running +1 runes on them instead? I am using the 3 necro build atm and i have a +3 rune for the mm and +1 runes for the others. I also used to run a +3 fire on my ele, but now I put a +1 rune. Any thoughts? I am mainly vanquishing and doing missions in hard mode atm, so this is the context I am talking about.

Jan 15, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19	#10
pygar Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Dec 2007 Guild: KORM Profession: R/Mo	I like +3 runes, and +2s as well. They are a lot of times way cheaper than +1's at the vendor, and I find at least in NM pve I can make do wth about 400-425hp. Not only can u reach certain break points with the bigger bonuses, but you can also boost a stat above twelve with the rune and bring it back down to 12 and gain huge amounts of points to move around to other stats if needed. I know the prevailing wisdom amongst players seems to put value on hit points over the attributes (otherwise the +1's wouldnt be so expensive), but really either the enemies i face cannot get around my defenses to do 300-400 damage to me that fast, or I got outnumbered by multiple groups and the x-tra 100hp wouldnt have really kept my group alive for enough seconds to really matter. Thought getting to the the Realm of Torment this weekend was going to make me change that, but sure enough it hasn't, even with all the weird extra environmental conditions (like the one that does 20dmg every time you attack or use a skill,thought that one would ruin me for sure). Basicly, -75hp may sound like a lot...but extra attribute points in the right place can make a bigger difference. Last edited by pygar; Jan 15, 2008 at 09:30 PM // 21:30..

Jan 15, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38	#2
Pyro maniac Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2006	you're right +1 is just the best. -75 hp is alot, while you just increase the green numbers a little. you may want to use major sometimes for hitting breakpoints, but I don't know any atm.

Jan 15, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39	#3
Squishy ftw Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Your backline Profession: W/	I got +1s on everything. I prefer my heros having 600ish health rather than having 2 ranks more in whatever attribute it is.

Jan 15, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43	#4
Olim Chill Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: USA Guild: DMI Profession: N/	The most I'd ever go is Major( +2 -35). -75 HP is too steep for my liking.

Jan 15, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46	#5
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	Since you are mostly vanquishing and/or HM, I wouldn't recommend +3 runes on anyone, including the MM. I use Major (+2) runes at most on any heroes, and Minors (+1) where the difference is slight. A Superior (+3) Rune on the MM does allow it to make 10 minions (with 16 in DM) and have slightly stronger minions, but the loss of health makes hero MMs die too easily IMHO. With a Major, they still can make 9 minions and they are only slightly less powerful. Basically, I use Major Runes on hero monks, necros & mesmers and minor runes on Rangers. (I don't really use the other heroes very often.)

Jan 15, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49	#6
Orange Milk Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ganking, USA Guild: Retired Profession: R/	-75 is ok with compensation, or a -35 for that matter. Compensation being Health inscriptions or Fourtitude mods on weapons as well as skills that raise you max health. I say play around witha PvP only to create combonations of runes, insignias and weapons you like. A sup rune here, a vitae insignia there and so on to get the attribute points and HP levels your happy with, then go buyem and slapem on your heros. Thats what I'd do if I were me.

Jan 15, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53	#7
I Will Heal You Ally Krytan Explorer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: In my HoM Guild: Canthan Refugees [TOGO] Profession: E/Rt	Well I couldn't imagine my ele without those +3/-75hp runes.... maybe it's a mistake cuz I get 495 with +30focus mod but still the eles can do with that power is great and add glyph of ele power for another +2 and you get 18 attribute points . Add some eggs & grails of might an dthere ya go with 20 attribute

Jan 15, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10	#8
MagmaRed Furnace Stoker Join Date: Mar 2007 Guild: Our Crabs Know True [LOVE] Profession: R/	I decided its a matter of personal preference and playstyle. I use Major and Superior runes on almost all my heroes. In fact, my MM uses Superior Death, Major Soul Reaping, Minor Blood, Attunement, and Major Vigor, with 4 MM Insignias and 1 Bloodstained Insignia. My MM hero rarely dies, and if she does, the whole team is usually dead anyway. I decided the ability to have more damage output from Superior Runes allows for things to die faster. When things die faster, I don't have to worry as much about staying alive, as there isn't much killing my team. I have Legendary Vanquisher, and Legendary Guardian, so I do know Hard Mode, and this has worked well for me. Heroes I use with Superior runes are: Livia (Death) Master of Whispers (Curse) Zhed Shadowhoof (Water) Acolyte Sousuke (Fire) Vekk (Air) Koss (Strength) Xandra (Channeling) Razah (Spawning Power) Melonni (Mysticism) Khamu (Scythe Mastery) Norgu (Illusion) Gwen (Domination) Heroes with Major runes: Dunkoro (Healing Prayers+Divine Favor) Tahlkora (Protection Prayers+Divine Favor) Ogden Stonehealer (Smiting+Divine Favor) Margrid The Sly (Marksmanship+Wilderness Survival) Acolyte Jin (Expertise+Beast Mastery) - thumper Pyre Fierceshot (Marksmanship+Expertise) Olias (Blood) Jora (Swordsmanship+Tactics) Goren (Hammer Mastery+Strength) Zenmai (Dagger Mastery+Critical Strikes) Anton (Shadow Arts+Dagger Mastery) General Morgahn (Spear Mastery+Leadership) Hayda (Motivation)

Jan 15, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17	#9
Biostem Jungle Guide Join Date: Oct 2007	The key is whether or not you are striving for a certain break point in an attribute. If you want that 16 rating, then definitely go w/ a sup rune, but if you're gonna spread points among 3 or more attributes, then it isn't worth it - use minors or majors. Frankly, the only case where I use a sup rune is on a MM hero, otherwise I go major or minor. Another factor is cost - generally speaking, major runes are the cheapest, whereas certain sup runes are more expensive and minors are all around more expensive. Also keep in mind that, given the proper application of other runes, insignias, and weapon mods, even that -75hp can be overcome...

Jan 15, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29	#12
erikjo Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Nov 2007 Guild: exct Profession: N/	Thanks all. I am mainly worried about hm, as when i play there are bosses that do spikes. I was vanquishing an area in cantha, and a ele boss with air magic spiked me for 576 in one hit. This is the kind of stuff I am worried about. On the non mm's, i am running full radiant insigs, +1 soul reaping and curse/blood depending on the necro, +41 hp, and two +10 health. I also have staffs with +30hp on them. To compensate for the -75 hp on the mm, i have a similar set up rune wise but I also use the woe spreader for the 60hp it gives. If you have any other advice for me let me know, and thanks to all. Any tips on henchies to bring with me, I am thinking a monk and maybe two w and an interrupt ranger?

Jan 15, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07	#14
Molock Desert Nomad Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Qu??bec Guild: Legacy of Angels [Halo] Profession: E/	My elementalist uses a +3 fire (or whatever elemental magic he is using) and a +1 energy storage rune. So basicly I end up with 485hp (or 455 using a "of enchanting" staff). I have never really had any problems with my hp being too low.

Jan 16, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44	#17
the_jos Forge Runner Join Date: Jun 2006 Guild: Hard Mode Legion [HML] Profession: N/	Depends on the area but in general, I'd say +1 runes do except with a breakpoint at higher rank (MM for example). Yesterday I played with a random group in a NM dungeon (guildie asked me to join him) and I got the feeling that both melee were using superior runes with no vigors to compensate. They went down too fast to explain otherwise. It also didn't help that a monk hero is just not so good at pre-casting PS

Jan 16, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21	#19
Earth Always Outnumbered Join Date: Jul 2006	Cut the flaming and help him. If you can't, don't post. It's simple. Thank you.

Jan 16, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28	#20
The Meth Desert Nomad Join Date: Jan 2007 Profession: R/	I almost always use a single sup, the reason being that for 99.9% of pve areas I and my heroes are never even in the slightest danger of dieing. The other .1% being DoA, Urgoz and Deep where you end up with 3 or 4 people just spamming imba pve skills and once again you have basically no chance of death.